Job Part V: Just a Few Questions

This is the final posting for the questions for the Book of Job in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible. Next, of course, will be the questions for the Book of Psalms. Hopefully you have taken the time to go back to the beginning, to Genesis, to read and consider all of these questions from the very beginning. I hope you will also post answers, and if you do I appreciate your response.


1. Job 19:25
25 But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives. In the end, he will stand upon the earth.

Questions
1. Of course Job will say this. Why? Is it because as fucked up as Job's life has become God can fuck it up even MORE, in ways that Job knows he could never imagine nor comprehend?


2. Job 21:7
7 "Why do the wicked live, become old, yes, and grow mighty in power?

Questions
1. Well, isn't part of the problem the fact that the wicked are often defined as those who do not believe in God? Aren't there plenty of good people who do not believe in God? Conversely, aren't there plenty of BAD people who believe in God?


3. Job 28:12
12 "But where shall wisdom be found? Where is the place of understanding?

Questions
1. But...wisdom isn't straight knowledge, is it? Doesn't wisdom include knowledge combined with courage, compassion, consideration, comfort, and care? Does God know this? Shouldn't God know this?


4. Job 28:28
28 To man he said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom. To depart from evil is understanding.'"

Questions
1. If understanding is true wisdom doesn't that then make fear fairly useless?

2. How is departing from evil true understanding when there are plenty of folks who understand much...yet still choose evil?

3. If fearing the Lord is true wisdom...uhmmm...isn't the Lord/God then using a loathsome tool (fear) to gain glory, a following, devotion, and all of that divine poppycock?


5. Job 37:23-24
23 We can't reach the Almighty. He is exalted in power. In justice and great righteousness, he will not oppress.

24 Therefore men revere him. He doesn't regard any who are wise of heart."

Questions
1. This makes no sense, does it? If God is SO excellent with His might and power (which can be seen everywhere) then people CAN find Him out, correct?

2. Where is God's justice and righteousness? Where was it for the Children of Israel as they meandered for forty fucking years in a goddamn desert? How about for the people who died on that most horrific September 11th? The people who did those terrible deeds that day worship the same damn God (and consequently thought that this God was showing justice and righteousness)...SO...where is the justice and righteousness?

3. If men revere ANYONE who has no regard for those who are wise of heart would they be doing so because they fear for their lives?

4. Would anyone in their right mind revere another who shows no regard for the wise of heart?


6. Job 38:4-6
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.

5 Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?

6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,

Questions
1. Isn't this one of the most favored set of verses quoted by believers? Do you know how everything came to be? Do you understand the whys of everything? No? Then how can you say there is no God?

2. Sooo...does the lack of understanding as to the hows and whys of anything in nature/the universe/ourselves prove this maniacal God that believers swear is real?

3. Does man's lack of ability to do anything prove God or the supposed truth of the Bible?


7. Job 42:7-8
7 It was so, that after Yahweh had spoken these words to Job, Yahweh said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you, and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job has.

8 Now therefore, take to yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept him, that I not deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job has."

Questions
1. Sooo...God is basically saying that these guys made Him angry and so they all need to go and kill something? What the fuck?


8. Job 42:10-17
10 Yahweh turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends. Yahweh gave Job twice as much as he had before.

11 Then came there to him all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all those who had been of his acquaintance before, and ate bread with him in his house. They comforted him, and consoled him concerning all the evil that Yahweh had brought on him. Everyone also gave him a piece of money, and everyone a ring of gold.

12 So Yahweh blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand female donkeys.

13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.

14 He called the name of the first, Jemimah; and the name of the second, Keziah; and the name of the third, Keren Happuch.

15 In all the land were no women found so beautiful as the daughters of Job. Their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers.

16 After this Job lived one hundred forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, to four generations.

17 So Job died, being old and full of days. BOOK I

Questions
1. Sooo...is God bribing Job with all of these things? Are all of these new things supposed to make the taking of all of his previous belongings/family okay and excusable?

2. Does this make the deaths of Job's previous children easier to bear? Does it or is it supposed to wash God's hands of guilt?

3. Sooo...what about everyone who got fucked over in this little experiment to test Job's faith and trust in God? What do they get?

4. God being all-powerful and all-knowing, He didn't have to prove Job's devotion/allegiance in this manner, did He?

5. Does God use this story of Job in the Old Testament to build the bad reputation of Satan?

6. This ALL falls on God, doesn't it? Isn't HE the one Who is supposed to be in ultimate, total control of EVERYTHING?


http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Questions-Pentateuch-ebook/dp/B00GVLQ0CY/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1387082160&sr=8-5&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-And-Said-ebook/dp/B0090NKCJW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1387082160&sr=8-2&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Confessions-Atheist-ebook/dp/B008FWBYY6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1387082160&sr=8-8&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Theologians-ebook/dp/B004LX0IOK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1387082160&sr=8-7&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/All-Fish-Sea-Ester-Lighthorse-ebook/dp/B004MYFVEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387082160&sr=8-1&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.zazzle.com/smartytwoshoes

https://sites.google.com/site/esterlighthorse/

Job Part III: Just a Few Questions

With ALL of these questions posed in regards to the Bible wouldn't it be nice to be able to access the questions in one place instead of flipping between blog postings? Now you can! The questions for the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch are now in one compilation, and there is no need whatsoever to flip-flop between various posts! Go here for your copy:
http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Questions-Pentateuch-ebook/dp/B00GVLQ0CY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385499539&sr=8-1&keywords=ester+lighthorse



This Strange and Terrible Journey

You know, going through this particular book in the Bible elicits so many emotions for me. There are so many different 'messages' to be found in this book of the Bible according to many of my childhood Bible instructors. And, yes, while I do (quite obviously) have a rather large chip on my shoulder when it comes to religion this book of the Bible reminds me again and again as I turn the pages of my Bible that the chip on my shoulder just may have some righteous standing after all.

1. Job 5:11

11 So that He sets on high those who are lowly, And those who mourn are lifted to safety.

Questions

     1) Really? And WHO destroys the lowly with the high? Does this not happen with each and every war fought on this planet whether or not it is a religious war? Is not God/the LORD in control of all things, everything out of necessity adhering strictly to HIS planning? So, again I ask you...just WHO destroys the lowly with the high?

     2) Lifted to safety? Lifted to safety? Fucking WHEN? What the hell happened to lifting the people to safety in WWII?

2. Job 5:12

12 He frustrates the plans of schemers so the work of their hands will not succeed.

Questions
     1) Yeah, real fucking good frustrating the plans of Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, bin Laden, Escobar, Noriega, and an ass load of other shit-fucks who just loved (and some still do) following through with dastardly plans, right?

     2) Sooo...WHO destroys the good intentions of the loving so that war may persist and peace fail to be recognized/achieved? Would it be man? Can you really say it is man who does such when it is made clear by more than just a few verses in the Bible that GOD Himself puts people up to shit (like when He purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart?)?

     3) Why does it seem like God is frustrating the peace-seekers and not the evil-doers? 

3. Job 5:13

13 He traps the wise in their own cleverness so their cunning schemes are thwarted.

Questions
     1) Who seizes the fearful in their own stupidity, thus bringing the advice of the wise to a fiery end?

4. Job 6:4

4 For the Almighty has struck me down with his arrows. Their poison infects my spirit. God's terrors are lined up against me.

Questions
     1) Well, damn...but doesn't this verse say a LOT?

     2) Would you say that Jim Jones, David Koresh, and all the preachers who led their flock to the killing chutes were infected by the poison of God? How do you know when you are poisoned by God? Was Jimmy Swaggart poisoned by God when he sought the services of a hooker?

     3) Isn't this the truth of what God does to people?

5. Job 6:30

30 Do you think I am lying? Don't I know the difference between right and wrong?

Questions
     1) Do you know the difference between right and wrong? Apparently not, right? If you DID you sure as hell wouldn't be sitting around letting God fuck you up for no goddamn good reason, RIGHT?

6. Job 7:2

2 like a worker who longs for the shade, like a servant waiting to be paid.

Questions
     1) You mean like the workers of the well-used feudal system? You mean like the African servants (SLAVES really)?

7. Job 7:14

14 Then You frighten me with dreams And terrify me by visions;

Questions
     1) Yeah, uhmmm...isn't this SO God though? Isn't this what God does? Scare and terrify?

8. Job 7:15

15 I would rather be strangled--rather die than suffer like this.

Questions
     1) Do you suppose some of the condemned people in the Nazi death camps felt this way? Would God let them die? Why did He FORCE them to suffer? Were they being punished?

9. Job 8:3

3 Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert the right?

Questions
     1) Is this a fucking trick question or what?

10. Job 8:20

20 "But look, God will not reject a person of integrity, nor will he lend a hand to the wicked.

Questions
     1) If God didn't support evil doers would He be able to exist, for is not this God/LORD of the Bible the BIGGEST evil doer EVER?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Ester%20Lighthorse&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank

https://sites.google.com/site/esterlighthorse/

http://www.zazzle.com/biblical_myth_periodic_table_of_elements_posters-228084324809883766

https://sites.google.com/site/wiseonecartooncreations/

http://www.zazzle.com/funny_quotes_poster_1-228598465831373233

This Grace, This Faith, This Fall

It ALL Must Start with the Fall

Today I watched a rather good movie called "Encounters: Paradise" with my mother. The movie was about how these various characters are having troubles in their lives, troubles ranging from criminal acts to drug abuse to emotional disconnection from their present life, and how Jesus comes into their life literally at a pivotal, watershed moment that WILL reflect in every moment of the rest of their lives. 

It was actually a very good movie and I am glad I watched it because it really brought a clearer understanding to me personally of the problems I perceive in the belief that Jesus died on the cross for all the sins of all men, that there does indeed exist a heaven and a hell, that the sorrow and death and bad things in this world are because of the fall of man, and that no matter how good of a person you were in life (or how bad, perhaps) if you do not believe in Jesus and have Him in your heart when you die you WILL go to a very terrible place.

I was raised Christian. Actually, I was raised very, very strict Christian. Many of my other blogs discuss the things I was taught to believe, and incidentally the things I believed for many years, but here I wish to discuss some of the romanticized notions of salvation through Jesus and the fall of man and why bad things happen...and how they were presented in this movie.

I will very readily admit that there is a very strong appeal to the thought that for all of the things I worry about, all of the things I fear, hope, need, want, love, see, feel, hurt, all of these emotions...for all of these things I experience it sure does sound nice that for all of my failings and imperfections not only can I have immediate help all of the time, every time, but I can also be completely and totally forgiven for everything I have done that is wrong. 

All I have to do is believe. All I have to do is take the free gift.

It is not a free gift. It is a very heavy gift that is wrapped so beautifully that when you first pick it up you see the beautiful wrapping paper and you feel the weight of the gift and you KNOW for certain that you picked the right gift. But then...you unwrap what you were given and what do you see? A list of ideologies, beliefs, myths, stories, fables and the like that you must hold as true in order to partake of the life of the matter.

Have you ever taken the time to look closely at what it is exactly that you are supposed to believe?

The thing that got to me the most in this movie "Encounters: Paradise" is the problem that the character Chris has with Jesus. What is Chris' problem? His 22-year old son died in the Thailand tsunami. Chris is so destroyed and distraught he is disconnected from himself, his wife, and reality. He lives in his pain as though it were the very last thing he has left that will allow his heart to hold onto the memory of his son.

The high scene between Chris and Jesus is when Chris demands to know why his son died? Why did Jesus/God kill this young man of only 22, who was actually studying to become a doctor of divinity in order to help bring people to Jesus? Jesus responds by telling Chris that He created a perfect world without death and disease and all the terrible things that happen be they caused by humans or caused by nature. Then when man ate of the wrong fruit all of that was changed forever and now man is left with the very unhappy parting gift for their disobedience to God: Sin.

Sin is why man is fallen. Sin is man's disobedience to God. Sin is what Jesus died for. Sin is cured, if you will, by the acceptance of Jesus into your heart and your life. This 'fall' that man initiated when he disobeyed God and ate of the wrong tree is the hands-down, number one reason (if not the ONLY reason) why bad things happen...like the character Chris' son dying in the tsunami.

Interestingly enough the problems I see with this are not to be found after the 'fall' but before it ever happened and when Adam and Eve were still in the Garden of Eden.

Created in Perfection

So, Genesis 1:26-28, 31 says,

      26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

     27 And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

     28 And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

     31 And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

The very first verse of Genesis chapter two specifically notes that the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And what is finishing something but completing something? And if something is complete does that not intone perfection? Yes, it does. If something is truly complete it exists in a perfected state since any elements absent would by definition render such incomplete.

You know, this is where things just make zero sense to me. None. And from what I have been taught, what I have learned about God is that He is the ABSOLUTE when it comes to perfection, and it is perfection in ALL things at that. If something is perfect it is complete in every element, free from any fault or any defect. From what I read in the Genesis account in the first two chapters it cannot be denied that God did not create a perfect man.

Free Will and the 'Fall' of Man

In this movie when Jesus explains free will as a particular gift from God (and I am totally paraphrasing here) He notes that before bad things happen and before good things happen there is an element that consistently pops up every time without fail: A person or persons make or made a CHOICE or set of CHOICES to do whatever it was they did. No arm twisting, just choice. From that choice a set of consequences will occur and will range anywhere between the very good and the very bad, the joyful and the sorrowful, the loving and the hateful, the diminishing and the increasing, the appreciating and the ungrateful. The utter failures and the sweeping victories. 

In the Garden of Eden God told Adam and Eve specifically to NOT eat from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil, even going so far as to inform the newly created man that if he DID happen to eat the bad fruit he would die. Here is where much of the foundation of Christianity may be found: God created free will and put it in man, God told man what NOT to do, man did exactly what he was instructed NOT to do, man was warned by God and did not listen. Thus, man gets exactly what they bartered for which, of course, is suffering and death and sorrow.

     

I couldn't disagree more.

Yes, I have heard all of the arguments (both sides) of whether or not God knew man would do what he did, so why didn't God stop him? Then there is the argument that refusal to believe such a story is actual rebellion against God, a remnant of the fallen nature of man that is the eternal gift that keeps giving its unwanted assistance in all things both human and divine lest salvation be sought through Jesus Christ. The surprise here really isn't in the notion that all the sins of man started with eating that bad fruit. It is not the fall itself. It is not the disobedience of man toward God.

It is considering the condition of the mind of man before the fruit was consumed.

Free will is the freedom to make choices that are not controlled, that are completely voluntary. God does not interfere with a human's free will. Here, though, this free will 'choice' that man made, that led to the fall of man and expulsion from the Garden of Eden, is non-existent.

Adam and Eve were never told by God the FULL definition of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. What does God say to them? All God says is that you can eat of every tree EXCEPT this tree, and if you do you will die. And what about the serpent who preyed on Eve's innocent ignorance? Did God ever note to Adam and Eve the presence of the serpent and what the serpent's intentions were when it came to God and man? Did God ever tell them that the serpent lies? Even more than that, did Adam and Eve even KNOW what constituted a lie?

Would you agree that a lie is evil? Surely, right? If the truth be the good, then the lie be the evil. But how can Adam and Eve even know that lying is wrong or even that the serpent is lying and definitely in the wrong if they do not know what right and wrong are? Remember, they have not eaten of the bad fruit as of yet, so HOW can they conclude that the fruit is bad, whether or not God gave full instruction, when they do not even have so much as a working knowledge as to what good and evil are?

Adam and Eve would not have known the serpent was lying to them.They had no concepts of right and wrong in relation to choice, let alone ANY similar knowledge. They do not know what consequences are and how unpleasant they can be. God puts in the bad tree, tells man it is bad for him and to not touch it...but then God never tells them about the tree of life?

Other questions that should be considered are:

     1. Genesis 3:6

          Here it says the woman saw the fruit was good for food, delightful. But without the knowledge of good and evil how does she know that doing the opposite of what God instructed was great error?

     2. Adam and Eve did not know anything about good and evil, so how could Eve make the proper assessment of the fruit being good for food WITHOUT the required knowledge?

     3. Genesis 3:3

          Here God informs Adam and Eve that the fruit of the bad tree will kill them if they touch and eat it. They would surely die. But isn't this admonition and threat of punishment not quite true or at the very least dishonest? If Adam and Eve had not yet eaten of the tree of life then clearly they are still mortal. What is God doing when He tells Adam and Eve they will die if they eat the fruit when they are already dying? Yes, I am familiar with the response that God was referring to spiritual death by sin. I don't buy it.

     4.God informs them of the bad tree but does not make a peep about the tree of life? 

     5. He tells them of impending doom and death but never ONCE mentions anything about the fullness in life with love in eternity with Him by eating the good tree? They don't even know it exists.

So here we have man, a new creation, a brand new being who is as innocent as they come and God:

     Does not tell them of the serpent

     Does not tell them of the tree of life or what its purpose is

     Does not explain death which is something they know nothing of

     Does not so much as allow a working knowledge of good and evil or offer examples of such

     Does not inform them of disobedience

Furthermore, AFTER they eat of the bad fruit what happens? Now remember that the bad fruit has immediately turned them into sinners/wrongdoers/the damned, alright? Now I want you to think of their response to God when He was walking in the garden, they are hiding, God asks where they are, and what do they say?

They tell God the truth. They did not lie or make God play twenty questions but simply popped right out with the truth. And other than that time the man exhibits no other unsavory behavior UNTIL the LORD God took it upon Himself to sew the seed of enmity within humanity and THEN man was booted from the garden and his behavior pattern took a real dive.

The bad things that happen in the world have nothing to do with any fall by man, for the truth of the matter is that even after eating the wrong fruit man still took that knowledge of good and evil and used it for GOOD, made a specific decision to use it for good by telling God the truth. 

It must be remembered that free will can only exist without prior causes affecting the choice and without God interfering. But God did interfere because He withheld information. He withheld the truth. He withheld life by NOT telling them of both trees from the get go. He denied them the understanding and because of all of that the choice they made was certainly not an informed choice, but a manipulated choice. 

That purposely manipulated choice, despite the wonderfully colorful ideas and myths and assertions about salvation and sweeping forgiveness and many other things was stripped of its base power the very moment God lied by omission, the very moment God manipulated the situation to guide man to sure and swift failure.

 http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Theologians-ebook/dp/B004LX0IOK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379839169&sr=8-1&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Confessions-ebook/dp/B008FWBYY6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1379839169&sr=8-3&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/The-Tenement-Gospel-ebook/dp/B004W0ITIY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1379839169&sr=8-2&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Broth-Spirit-Said-ebook/dp/B0090NKCJW/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1379839169&sr=8-6&keywords=ester+lighthorse

http://spoutgod.blogspot.com/2013/09/nostradamus-and-christianity-and.html